Viking FGC23343 – Page 12 – Family Tree DNA Forums

Very good point. I would just be happy if there were some more specific indicators to suggest William fitz Nigel and William Dorée were brothers. The Doreys in particular seem to have enormous gaps in the continuity of their documentary record. I wouldn’t doubt if the name had arisen independently multiple times in the region, with lineages fading into and out of existence before the documentary record can establish any continuity. But as things stand, this just seems a matter of speculation.

There’s still some room for doubt as to how the others most likely connect. SAPP seems to have just mindlessly tacked everybody else on top of one another, resulting in the founder of FGC23343 at a TMRCA nearly 50% earlier than the date suggested by techniques dating the underlying SNPs.


Plus, the genetic distances from the modal for those people beyond Henderson suggest really improbable mutation scenarios–like less than 1% probability. And the Henderson node could probably get pushed back a couple of generations, too–there’s a large multi-step mutation at CDYb.

The really exotic thing is that there are members of this lineage who appear to be living in the Basque country today. Not a complete surprise, given the distribution of the parent clade, Z209. But I expected to find a really ancient divergence with a long, meandering migration on the continent from Iberia to Denmark before commencing the more typical migration route from Norway to Shetland and then the Hebrides, etc.

FGC23343 must have a very idiosyncratic story behind its spread. Like a Basque ship captain joining a viking band around Ireland or the Hebrides. If the seasonal fishing patterns documented from the late Middle Ages were not innovations, it’s easy to see how such people could have come into contact. But it just doesn’t fit with conventional notions about the ethnic composition of viking bands.

. . . FGC23343 must have a very idiosyncratic story behind its spread. Like a Basque ship captain joining a viking band around Ireland or the Hebrides. If the seasonal fishing patterns documented from the late Middle Ages were not innovations, it’s easy to see how such people could have come into contact. But it just doesn’t fit with conventional notions about the ethnic composition of viking bands.

If instead, of my earlier theory, the true migratory pattern is actually from Scandinavia or Britain to Spain, this could account for the odd observed genetic distances, which make the relationship of the German FGC23343+ people to the primary "Ui Imhair" group scarcely distinguishable from that of the Basque people. Hard to be confident when the relationships are so remote and the sample size so small.

The typical rule is to assume that the epicentre of a clade’s original homeland correlates positively with the level of haplotype diversity, which, in the present scanty information environment, would be the Scottish isles. But against that we have to consider whether the Anglo-centric bias of the available databases could be skewing our results.

Maybe knowing Chalmers’ genetic distance to the Gendron matches at 111 markers would be useful. The Gendron surname is concentrated along this same coast, in the Vendee, which, although significantly farther north than Bayonne, also experienced viking raids at this same time. Probably elements of the same viking bands operated in both theatres.

But at the 50% confidence level, FGC23343 is estimated to have arisen around 200 A.D. At that time, San Sebastian fell within the territory of the Varduli tribe, who believed to have spoken a Celtic, not a Basque language. In the modern era this place seems to be considered solidly Basque, but that is probably the result of a gradual process of acculturation that did not start until the 500’s A.D. and may not have been substantially completed until the 1200’s.

-The identity of the "Eruli" described in the contemporary sources is up for debate. That author’s discussion is very brief, and he doesn’t describe the basis for his calling these raiders Eruli, or specifically state where they were based. It is by no means clear that the modern interpretation, that they were a northern branch of the much better documented Heruli, is correct.

As a side note, but probably with interesting implications for the history of FGC23343 in the Scottish islands, there are two other families (Hutchinson and Burgar) in the Shetland DNA project, other than Henderson, who seem likely to be FGC23343+. None of them are close matches to Henderson, and none report haplotypes longer than 25 markers, so this is very speculative. But all of them have DYS458>17, which is one of the markers distinguishing FGC23343 from the modal for the ancestral clade Z209. And one of them, Burgar, like Henderson, has roots in Dunrossness parish, although there is some speculation that their earlier history is in Orkney. In any event, the etymology of the name seems to be some Scandinavian-derived farm name, rather than some origin further afield.

A computer generated networking chart of the STR haplotypes strongly suggests a path from the Scottish islands to Normandy and then England for the FGC28370 branch of FGC23343. This is remarkably consistent with the documentary record of the Gerard family of Ince, Lancashire, who are quite likely descendants of the Neel viscounts of Saint Sauveur.

Some members of this group, especially the Edgeworths of Edgeworthstown, Co. Longford and the Garnetts of Bunbury, Cheshire, have very strong paper trails linking them to this very Gerard family. There are also people named Gerard in this group, but perhaps ironically, their paper trail is not nearly as strong as the others. In context it seems a very reasonable speculation to assume that this FGC28370 signature is properly considered to belong to the Gerard family, but there just isn’t any strong contemporary documentation to reinforce the link.

With regard to the networking chart, the Vincents seem to be in a very similar situation to most FGC23343 branches, with no clear relationship to one another. Given their genetic distance to the mean, I’m inclined to theorize that they may have branched off from the stem earlier than most other branches, though given the great lengths of time we are talking about, that is only a very loose speculation.

There are a few confirmed or highly suspected FGC23343 with strong roots along the Bay of Biscay, adjacent to but not necessarily within what is traditionally considered Basque country, such as Saintonge, France, historically a center of Huguenot activity. Closer to the ZZ40 homeland, I’d expect them to have a higher-than-average genetic distance to the FGC23343 mean than the younger British or German branches, and I think that’s what I see.

A lot of Huguenots ended up in North America through British-assisted immigration schemes, but some descendants probably ended up in Louisiana and surrounding states when the British ethnically cleansed the Acadians from Nova Scotia. There were a lot of varied strands to French migration to Canada, but they did include Huguenots forcibly exiled as part of state sponsored religious persecution.

The paper trail for my line of Vincents goes as far as Dumfrieshire 1748 with the Birth of Joseph Vincent. John was his father. I lose track of John and may need to hire a British genealogy pro to sort through the British records of the 1600s. Joseph bought land after the revolutionary war in the Shenandoah Valley and the Vincents lived there until the Civil War. It was at that time alot of my Vincent line moved west to Kentucky, Missouri and even further west to Oregon.

There is a strong Scandinavian presence in the Vincent name project as well as french. All of us that are in the project, the American and Australian Vincents, are having a difficulties once traced back to Europe, even the Vincenots. One Vincent line in the United States trace their decedancy back to the 1600’s in Virginia another line of Vincents trace back to Somerset, Maryland and the Cornwall area of England in the 1500’s.

From my big book of family lore (a photocopied family bible that burned in the 1970s), Francis Vincent was an English knight in the 1500’s and the first Vincent to live in England was Miles Vincent, from Kiel, Daneland at the time (or Denmark) fleeing the Teutonic/German incursion in the 1300’s. This would be more consistent with me being more related to the german branch of FGC23343 after a Carolingian expansion.

I am not opposed to a Huguenot background but what information I have uncovered, it does not show any French background in my line. (That could be proven otherwise in the future, i am open to new information). Future testing with more french information in Aquitaine, Brittany and Normandy would provide additional information. More information is always welcome, and I will be interested what the future holds.